Greetings, oh wanderers of the Cosmere! Welcome back to Roshar, where we’ll be having fascinating conversations with a deranged Herald, a confused former assassin, and a snarky sword. This week, if you hadn’t guessed, we’ll check back in with Szeth at the end of the flight launched back in Chapter 98. We still don’t get Nalan’s promised revelations, though.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
This week’s reread has no particular greater-Cosmere discussion, so you’re safe on that front..}
Chapter Recap
WHO: Szeth
WHERE: On the journey, arriving in Marat
WHEN: 1174.2.7.1 (Three days after the paintball game in Chapter 98. Note that this is 6 days ahead of the main timeline, and approximately the same time as Venli arrives in Marat.)
Szeth, Nin, and the other Skybreakers arrive in Marat. Szeth and Nin have a(nother) discussion about what, exactly, justice is.
Beginnings
Title: Law Is Light
“Law is light, and darkness does not serve it. Ask, and I will answer.”
AA: It’s an interesting statement, coming from the guy our favorite Edgedancer refers to as… Darkness. Even more interesting in that he says this in response to Szeth’s “May I ask you a question?” He’s in the middle of acknowledging that he and Ishar have been wrong this whole time, but he still purports to be able to give “right” answers.
Heralds: Nalan, Judge, Herald of Justice, patron and member of the Skybreakers, attributes Just & Confident
AA: This one is easy—the chapter is all about the Skybreakers, and most of it involves Nalan pontificating to Szeth. Let me also note that the soulcasting properties associated with his gemstone are “opaque gas, smoke, fog.” I just think that “gas” is appropriate. (I’m really unimpressed by Nalan these days, in case you didn’t notice…)
AP: Just and Confident are definitely his attributes too! He is obsessed with justice, and entirely convinced that his interpretation is correct. Even when he admits to having been wrong, he is absolutely certain that his new interpretation of events is the correct one. And blowing smoke seems to be a special talent.
Icon: The Assassin, for a Szeth POV
Epigraph:
I find Ba-Ado-Mishram to be the most interesting of the Unmade. She is said to have ben keen of mind, a highprincess among the enemy forces, their commander during some of the Desolations. I do not know how this relates to the ancient god of the enemy, named Odium.
— From Hessi’s Mythica, page 224
L: I’m terrified to see what happens when she eventually gets set free.
AA: I know, right? It might not be as bad as we think, because one of her most damaging abilities was her ability to form the Connection that made the False Desolation possible. Still, she was apparently pretty dangerous even before that, so… yikes?
AP: Sooo…I’m wondering if she is possibly already free? Her imprisonment is what put the singers into slaveform in the first place. After being healed by the Everstorm, I wonder if her prison was weakened, or if she was released prior to that to enable them to be healed within the storm. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we get this epigraph on a chapter that looks at the aftermath of the singers regaining Identity.
Thematic Thoughts
Together, the two of them flew to a smaller town on a hill near the coast.
Szeth knew the effects of war when he saw them.
AA: Smashed walls, broken doors etc. Szeth assumes at first that it was “that tyrant in Tukar” (who we know is actually Ishar), but Nin says this is a different danger. He goes into something that, on first read, looks like a non sequitur:
“It says ‘justice,’ “ Nin said. “This was a courthouse.”
…
“The ones you call parshmen name themselves the singers,” Nin said. “They took this town and pressed the survivors into labor at some docks farther along the coast. Was what happened here justice, Szeth-son-Neturo?”
“How could it be? … Ordinary people, living ordinary lives, suddenly attacked and murdered?”
AA: We don’t know yet, and he doesn’t tell us in this chapter, why Nin might possibly see this as a form of justice. That backstory will have to wait for another day.
L: In retrospect, since we know the backstory, it is a strikingly haunting question. Is it justice, to make people pay for the actions of their ancestors? Is it justice, to take back lands which rightfully should have been theirs? To repay centuries (possibly millenia) of slavery with violence? It’s a really heavy question, and one that I don’t think has a “right” answer.
AP: I don’t know that there is a “right” answer either, but I do want to note that this is not just the sins of the ancestors. The parshmen were currently enslaved until they were awakened by the Everstorm. What happened here was a slave rebellion.
AA: It was a slave rebellion of sorts, but I’m not entirely sure about the culpability of the slave owners, if they treated the parshmen well. (There’s no excuse for treating slaves badly—beyond the simple fact of owning them, which is dodgy in itself.) The parshmen, as they were left in the aftermath of the False Desolation, might well have died out had not the humans taken some responsibility for them. Making them slaves wasn’t, perhaps, necessary… but if you’re going to take responsibility for generations of people who can’t take care of themselves, it’s probably reasonable to get some return for your efforts. But that’s… kind of a discussion for a different time.
Szeth doesn’t know any of that yet, and all Nalan gives him here are weird hints about lords and princes and how ordinary people are sometimes killed in nominally “just” conflicts.
AP: They are oblique hints for sure, but he is still on topic. These are some of the clearest hints that we get prior to the big reveal that the humans and Odium are the invaders. If they hadn’t arrived on Roshar, everything would have continued to work in harmony. I think it’s definitely possible to justify a slave uprising. One of the repeating themes in Oathbringer is that multiple perspectives exist for the same events. So while, yes, it’s possible to look at this event the way Szeth does and see “ordinary people, living ordinary lives,” those ordinary people were slavers. It’s also possible to see the perspective of the Singers who labored under them and rebelled once they had the ability to do so.
AA: Totally possible to see both sides—and to realize that true justice may not be possible. After all, the people who started it have been dead for millennia.
Switching to a quick diversion on Skybreakers, and Nalan in particular,
“You are in a unique position, Szeth-son-Neturo. You will be the first to swear the oaths of a Skybreaker in a new world, a world where I have failed.”
AA: I suppose as a Herald, he does have a greater responsibility for the world in general than most individuals do, but it still seems pretty arrogant to take all the credit/blame himself. A world where I have failed? What about we? Because I’m thinking that all the Heralds (except Taln) failed, however understandably. The only thing different about Nin is that his Order stayed around in hiding, so he had a whole organization to support his … Desolation-avoidance efforts. Does that make it his failure? Meh.
L: Well, he also failed to see the signs that the Desolation had begun again and killed a whole hell of a lot of proto-Knights Radiant.
A: Thereby shooting all of humanity in the foot. Thanks, dude.
“I worked for thousands of years to prevent another Desolation. Ishar warned me of the danger. Now that Honor is dead, other Radiants might upset the balance of the Oathpact. Might undermine certain … measures we took, and give an opening to the enemy.”
AA: I’m still completely baffled by this. What is he talking about? Was he (and maybe the other Heralds) behind the Recreance, influencing the Radiants to shut the system down, and leaving only the Skybreakers to sneak around in the shadows getting rid of any incipient Radiants before they can mess things up?
L: Yeah, this is really curious. What balance of the Oathpact? Isn’t the Oathpact already kaput? So many questions!
In the distance, farther along the coast, a large bay glistened with blue water. Many masts of ships gathered there, figures buzzing around them.
AA: I’m not sure if Szeth knows, but we should recognize those figures as Fused…
AP: I’m glad you mentioned that, because I was thinking of them as the rest of the Skybreaker party exploring the area! Fused makes more sense.
“I have failed. And now, for the people, justice must be done. A very difficult justice, Szeth-son-Neturo. Even for my Skybreakers.”
AA: Is Nin, or are all the Skybreaker leadership, already planning to dump humanity and support the Singers’ claim to the entire world? If so, why? Nin (and Ishar) should know the whole truth of the beginning of the conflict. Are they now saying that they were wrong in the first place, and should have let humanity be wiped out instead of ever creating the Oathpact?
L: It’s a scary thought, but one which has at least some small amount of merit. I don’t think that humanity should be wiped out, obviously, but some recompense is necessary. There must be something that can be done, whether that’s finding a new home for humanity (possibly another planet) or trying to broker some sort of compromise in regards to land ownership. The slavery’s got to stop, though. On both sides.
AP: That’s what I’m getting too. I think in typical Nale fashion he’s going to take it too far, to absolutes. But from his hints in this chapter that was the plan already. I do agree that there needs to be some sort of reparations or recompense, and a path forward to sharing the planet is going to be incredibly difficult.
“I am hardly passionless. This is the problem. I am … different from how I once was. Worse, perhaps? Despite all that, a part of me wishes to be merciful.”
AA: He’s at least acknowledging that there’s something awry, much as Kalak did in the Words of Radiance Prologue. I guess that’s … not nothing? (Okay, so the guy is ten thousand years old, and presumably hasn’t slept in 9,950 years or so. There’s a reason he’s awry, I’ll grant him that much!)
L: Interesting philosophical query—does passion help or hinder the execution of law? On the one hand, an emotionless, unbiased view would be most logical (see: Vulcans) but on the other… having passion and emotion allows you to see and empathise with the victims of a situation.
AP: Invoking the “P” word has become an automatic red flag for me! During the reread, this is what signalled the most clearly that he’s been in contact with Odium, or someone Odium adjacent. On a slight tangent, I want to note that the enemy is Odium, not the singers themselves. And we have seen that Odium is equally willing to partner with humans or singers to advance his agenda. Interestingly, Odium, in that he represents “passion,” is a good fit for Nale, who is a zealot for the law. After centuries of torture he has lost his ability to feel compassion or mercy, and he takes justice to extremes, granting himself the ability to be judge, jury, and executioner. No surprise that he is going to apply that same extreme thinking to the human/singer conflict once he chooses a side.
“And is … mercy such a bad thing, aboshi?”
“Not bad; merely chaotic. … Some of those who are set free change their lives and go on to produce for society. Others recidivate and create great tragedies. The thing is, Szeth-son-Neturo, we humans are terrible at spotting which will be which. The purpose of the law is so we do not have to choose. So our native sentimentality will not harm us.”
AA: Such an interesting contrast to Nohadon’s questioning, isn’t it? To say nothing of Dalinar’s! Remember that discussion Dalinar had with Taravangian about the dilemma posed by a situation where three are guilty and one is innocent? Taravangian’s view seems much closer to Nin than to Nohadon.
Buy the Book
The Unspoken Name
Rabbit trail: why are the uncertain characters, the men who find it difficult to know how to answer that question, the ones who seem much more sympathetic to the reader? Nalan and Taravangian both seem to have reached the conclusion that it’s better to kill the innocent man too, in order to prevent possible future harm to other innocent people. While I’m sure we all want the possible future harm to not happen, neither the Herald nor the King seem… well, trustworthy in their judgement. Both Dalinar and Nohadon have great difficulty with the question, and we—or at least I—find them much more congenial characters.
L: Well, yeah… they’re allowing their emotions to guide them, they’re being empathic. This is a much more relatable and “human” trait than cold logic.
AP: Humans aren’t rational creatures! Morals and ethics are difficult, squishy, complicated questions. There isn’t an “easy” answer. Part of what keeps me engaged in the Stormlight Archive is this recognition that moral questions are hard. However, Nale’s insistence that following the law absolves him of moral culpability is flawed as well. Because messy chaotic humans make the laws.
“I know you are great, ancient, and wise,” Szeth said. “But … to my lesser eyes, you do not seem to obey your own precepts. You hunted Surgebinders, as you said.”
“I obtained legal permission for the executions I performed.”
“Yes,” Szeth said, “but you ignored many lawbreakers to pursue these few. You had motives beyond the law, aboshi. You were not impartial. You brutally enforced specific laws to achieve your ends.”
AA: He’s got you there, buddy…
L: True. It’s the old “the ends justify the means” argument.
AA: Nin at least has the honesty to acknowledge it, but then he totally rationalizes his decision:
“… The others have told you of the Fifth Ideal?”
“The Ideal where the Skybreaker becomes the law?”
Nin held out his empty left hand. A Shardblade appeared there, different and distinct from the Honorblade he carried in the other hand. “I am not only a Herald, but a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal.”
AA: Which… wow? He sort of implies that Skybreakers don’t get a spren-blade until the fifth Ideal, which seems unusual. What bothers me far more is the idea that the individual becomes the law. That’s concerning enough, given the fallibility of human nature, but this guy is messed up in the head—and he “is“ the law? That’s seriously frightening stuff there.
To be fair, I’m not 100% sure what they mean by that phrasing; I generally interpret it to mean that the Fifth-Ideal Skybreaker believes himself to be sufficiently erudite that his decisions are justice by definition. That… yeah, no. I don’t think so. He’s using it to justify what he moments ago acknowledged was ineffective and likely wrong: killing Radiants for centuries, under the incorrect assumption that it would prevent a Desolation.
L: I think we’ve discussed this before, but yeah. I’m going to be really interested to find out what Szeth’s Fifth Ideal winds up being.
“… I must tell you of the decision we Heralds made, long ago. On the day that would become known as Aharietiam. The day we sacrificed one of our own to end the cycle of pain and death…”
AA: It appears that he’s going to tell something pretty close to the truth, at least…
AP: Well, his side of it at least…
Stories & Songs
They stopped several times to recover hidden stockpiles in mountain peaks or remote valleys.
AA: Pretty convenient, being the only people who could fly. Stockpile whatever you want, no one else can get to it to steal your stuff!
To find doorways, they often had to hack through five inches of crem. That amount of buildup had probably taken centuries to accumulate, yet Nin spoke of the places as if he’d just left. At one, he was surprised to find the food long since decayed—though fortunately, the gemstone stockpile there had been hidden in a place where it remained exposed to the storms.
In these visits, Szeth finally began to grasp how ancient this creature was.
AA: Uh… yeah. Truly ancient, and also out of touch with the passage of time, apparently.
L: Well, that makes sense, for an immortal being that’s been around as long as he has.
AA: I find it quite snicker-worthy that Nin was surprised about the food having decayed. What I really wonder, though, is just how long these stashes have been there. Since the Recreance? Have they been maintained over the last thousand years? Also, why?
L: Boy Scout motto: Be prepared? It makes a lot of sense to me that if you’re literally immortal, you’d set up contingencies for every possible situation.
“…aboshi.” The divine honorific was his best guess of how to address one of the Heralds, though among his people it had been reserved for the great spren of the mountains.
AA: Once again, Szeth is trying to sort out what to call people; this feels sort of like the way he calls Nightblood “sword-nimi.” It’s logical that he would try to be as reverent as possible, I guess. What really jumped out at me, though, is “the great spren of the mountains.” Is that spren-singular, or spren-plural? Is he talking about the Sibling?? It would make sense in several ways, and would also be a cool reason for the Sibling to have plural pronouns. It would also imply that the Shin know a lot more about certain things than the rest of the world. Or, if they don’t actually know the significance of the spren, they still know of the existence thereof.
Or, of course, it could just be that every mountain has a spren, and they refer to those spren as “aboshi.”
AP: Also a good reminder here about how the Shin feel that rocks are quite literally holy ground and refuse to walk on them. So you may be onto something there!
…at his hand, where a glistening Shardblade appeared. One of the two missing Honorblades. Szeth’s people had care of eight. Once, long ago, it had been nine. Then this one had vanished.
He’d seen depictions of it…
AA: So just in case anyone was still in doubt, yes. Nalan reclaimed his Honorblade, and it was not recent. We don’t know how long ago “long ago” is, but definitely prior to Szeth’s lifetime, and I’d say it’s implied that it’s been at least centuries. Possibly millennia.
Flora & Fauna
They landed on a plain full of strange brown grass that reminded Szeth of wheat, save for the fact that this pulled down into burrows, leaving visible only the small bob of grain on the top. This was casually eaten by wild beasts that were wide and flat, like walking discs, with claws only on the underside to shove the grain into their mouths.
The disclike animals would probably migrate eastward, their droppings containing seeds that—stuck to the ground—would survive storms to grow into first-stage polyps. Those would later blow to the west and become second-stage grain.
L: I kind of imagine these things as horseshoe crabs!
AP: Living roombas!
AA: I couldn’t come up with a single plausible mental image, honestly. All I could see were the Ivar’s clams. Still, weird animals aside, the seeding method is totally accurate, and also cool. I wonder if this could really be an adapted form of wheat. Depending on what skills the humans brought with them from Ashyn along with their plants and animals, they could have originally had the ability to begin this kind of plant modification. It would be pretty cool to find out that they got it started and then it went wild even while the wars were starting.
Places & Peoples
Historically, Marat wasn’t truly a nation—but neither was it a place of nomads, like the backwaters of Hexi and Tu Fallia. Instead, Marat was a group of loosely connected cities, tribally run, with a highprince at their head—though in the local dialect, he was called “elder brother.”
AA: I quoted this partly for the worldbuilding, and partly because I have a question. Why does Szeth think in terms of highprinces? Is that a worldwide thing? Do the Shin have them? Has he spent so much time in the Vorin kingdoms that he’s using their wording? Or is Sanderson just having him use it for our sake?
L: My take on this is that he’s spent so much time in Vorin territory that he’s started to think in those terms.
The country made for a convenient waystop between the Vorin kingdoms of the east and the Makabaki ones of the center west. Szeth knew that Marat was rich in culture, full of people as proud as you’d find in any nation—but of almost no value on the political scale.
AA: On one hand, it’s a bummer to be dismissed so readily, but on the other… you just get to live your life and not get dragged into world politics. (Or at least, you mostly did until recently.) I wonder if this was always the situation, or if some of this was caused by the various attempts at world domination from both the east and the west. Were they, at one time, an actual kingdom, but disrupted so thoroughly by the trampling of armies that they gave it up as a bad job, and made themselves not susceptible to national acquisition by simply decentralizing all government?
All life worked in concert, he’d been taught in his youth. Everything but men, who refused their place. Who destroyed instead of added.
AA: This is the ending of the paragraph quoted in Flora & Fauna, and it makes me wonder about the Shin. The first sentence seems to fit with what little we know of their culture, where they place farmers as the highest calling and warriors as the lowest. But the other two sentences—is that Shin teaching, or Szeth’s own experience? It might be Shin; what seems to be a very regimented social structure could be based on the assumption that humans must be forcibly constrained in order to function properly in the world. Or it could just be Szeth; he has a very twisted view of pretty much everything, what with being condemned and outcast, spending nearly a decade doing anything reprehensible or honorable at the behest of his “owners,” finding out that he was right in the first place… It will be interesting to learn more of the Shin culture and what led to all of Szeth’s years of exile in the first place.
L: The way this is worded, it makes me think that the entire saying is one he was taught in the Shin culture. It could be learned, but the wording of it leads me to believe that it all belongs together.
AA: That would also fit with the Shin disapproval of all the eastern people, who profanely walk on stone and all that. They do see all humans—except themselves—as having refused their appropriate place, simply by dint of living in the lands east of the mountains. All in all, I think you’re right.
AP: It’s also yet another hint that humans just ain’t from around these parts.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
Aw, the sword said from his back. We missed the fun?
AA: Thank you, Nightblood, for a (completely ignored) moment of humor! Also, you’re really kind of sick, you know?
L: ::snicker::
You should draw me, the sword said.
“And do what, sword-nimi?” Szeth whispered.
Fight him. I think he might be evil.
“He is one of the Heralds—one of the least-evil things in the world.”
Huh. Doesn’t bode well for your world, then. …
AA: It’s really bizarre when Nightblood is the voice of reason. Just sayin’.
Also, while it’s probably true that originally, he was one of the least-evil things in the world, that ended a long, long time ago.
L: I was going to say “well…” but honestly, you’re right. Boy’s been out murdering innocent people for centuries.
AP: Yeah, if he’s setting off Nightblood’s evil-sense, then we’ve got a problem.
Sheer Speculation
AA: Hey, here’s a fun little speculation. If Szeth really was referring to the Sibling when he said “the great spren of the mountains,” what are the odds that he might end up being the third Bondsmith instead of progressing all the way in the Skybreakers? I like the idea of Rlain bonding the Nightwatcher, so we have a Listener involved. Then we could have Dalinar, Rlain, and Szeth as the Bondsmiths. I could see that.
L: Oooooor Rlain could bond the Sibling?
AP: Interesting theory, but I think I’d prefer to see Szeth progress into a “good” Skybreaker rather than a Bondsmith. Also, selfishly, I want to see the progression of each of the orders, and we don’t currently have another Skybreaker to follow.
Quality Quotations
He’d seen depictions of it, strikingly straight and unornamented for a Shardblade, yet still elegant. Two slits ran the length of the weapon, gaps that could never exist in an ordinary sword, as they would weaken it.
AA: Well, I certainly seem to have asked more questions than I answered this week! Chapters like this are a mixture of fascination and frustration to me; there’s so much more insight into Nalan’s thinking than we’ve ever had before, but at the same time there’s still so much we don’t get to see.
Now it’s your turn. What do you make of all this?
Next week there will be no post, due to the USA Thanksgiving holiday. The week after that, we’ll dive into Chapter 107, which is long and full of tension, what with Dalinar and Taravangian POVs that twist the reader into knots.
Alice is done with volleyball for the year, but on a high note. Her daughter’s team took 8th place at the state tournament (out of 58 teams in their division, made up of the smallest schools in the state) and brought home their first-ever state trophy. Alice currently has no voice left, but hopes to recover someday soon.
Lyndsey is thankful this year for her families—not those dictated by blood, but those she’s found along the way. She loves her fellow Sanderson beta/gamma readers, rennies, cosplayers, fire performers, and all the other communities she’s been blessed to be a part of over the years with a fierce and undying love. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
Aubree just started a new D&D campaign and is totally basing her asshole paladin on Nale.
I think that a lot of Nalan’s character can be explained if you assume that he swore to Ishar as an Oath.
Can this thought be taken a step further? Is she, in fact, the Everstorm, Odium’s counter to the Stormfather?
But Harmony doesn’t reside on Roshar ;)
So first and foremost, really appreciate the maps, and the time references (in regard to Venli for instance). Really helps keep everything placed in the mind.
I love how Sanderson plays on each of the herald’s madness in a different way. To see brief glimpses of Nale’s inner torment. Wanting to be confident, thinking he is doing the right thing, but being unsure. Knowing that due to the powers he has access to, any decision he makes will affect countless lives.
Ba-Ado-Mishram is an example of why I think we have seen no where near the level of power Odium’s forces can bring to bear to challenge even the heralds when they were fueled directly by honor via their honorblades before honor died. I think things are really going to ramp up for our heros in book 4!
So I do have to comment. What does treating a slave mean when the individual is still a slave? Especially when you are the cause of their enslavement. There are plenty of traditions in Vorinism of the lighteyes duty to care and uplift their darkeyed brethren. Why were there no traditions such as that put into place for the parsh? Could it have been distorted over the centuries like what happened with lighteyes and darkeyes? Sure! But it was not present at all. The parsh were changed into that, and those that did the changing saw a useful tool to use. If the humans truly wanted the moral highground, they would have cared for their invalid charges without expectation. Also can one say that just because you do not beat your slave, but you still breed them like cattle is treating them well? This is one of the many reasons I love Brandon’s books. There are no easy answers, and everyone has a valid side.
The Oathpact is still active. It is just weakened. WoB for that
I think this scene truly shows Szeth is a true skybreaker in my mind. What I think the order was before Nale’s madness corrupted it. Question and research, then apply the law. Szeth is learning to question.
Hey! Nale is not just the President of the Skybreaker club for Roshar, he’s also a client!
So, didn’t Odium tell Dalinar at some point that since he is really Passion without him everybody would be as emotionless as Nale? And here we have “I am hardly passionless” from the horse’s Herald’s own mouth. Who to believe, who to believe…
Annoyingly, we didn’t learn in OB what the second great secret that Nale promised to reveal was. I mean, the fact that the Heralds have been on Roshar incognito this whole time was already known to the Skybreakers for the obvious reasons, so it couldn’t be that.
IIRC, this reference to BAM is the first and only time we saw the term “highprincess” in SA. Wives of the Highprinces aren’t called such and, as far as we know, a woman has never been a ruling Highprince(ss) in Vorin history. Is it a hint that Hessi doesn’t quite fit with her purported culture? Thaylenah has queens, apparently, though I am curious how and why a nominally Vorin country would _elect_ a woman for this position. But they don’t have Highprinces. Neither do the Non-Vorin countries, IIRC.
I also don’t believe that healing of the parsh happened because of her, since then we’d be back to square 1, as she was able to force the forms, including voidforms, on them and in fact replaced the natural form-shifting of the singers with her interventions. This is the reason why the Listeners had to painfully rediscover the forms. The parsh had been slaves even before they were lobotomized – BAM’s ones, as the Listener songs back in WoR testify. The Last Legion’s escape was a bid for freedom, and what makes the current situation unique and open to new approaches is that the awakened parsh/singers are both free to decide for themselves where they stand, as their ancestors weren’t and they are also attuned and Connected to the human cultures that they existed in prior to their healing. Yes, there has to be some kind of restitution for the slavery, of course, and they have a right to be angry, but one reason for Venli’s character is IMHO that they need to realise that Odium’s side only ever brought their ancestors slavery too and that it was very likely majorly responsible for the conflict arising in the first place, fanned the flames of war at every opportunity and engineered the collapse of the Dawnsinger civilzation.
I would also question how much of a “slave rebellion” it was in this town. We have seen how the voidspren and the Fused drive the awakened parshmen according to their own plans. The Azish parshmen, when left to themselves, wanted to negotiate with humans, the Thaylen ones also didn’t want to fight, etc. So, what we see there is what the Fused decided, not the ex-parshmen themselves.
“Measures we took” – I have a possibly crackpotty theory that the renegade Heralds, at least some of them, have done something that helped Taln hold out for as long as he did. I mean, he is the most resilient among the Heralds but I question the idea that he could be so much stronger than the rest of them combined. Since Ishar was involved, maybe he had been able to somehow manipulate the Oathpact in such a way that “bending the oaths” became much more difficult or something. I also suspect that the madness of the apostate Heralds was the result of that tampering.
Whether the Radiants could truly somehow interefere with the “measures” or not I don’t know, but I have long believed that Ishar and Nale were involved in the Recreance. That Ishar somehow manipulated the dying Honor to cause “the ravings” or even impersonated him.
Alice:
I don’t think that Nale already knows here what the Skybreaker leadership and/or the rest of the Order would decide, he just assumes. Didn’t he send them to some other town to wait for him before he set off with Szeth? My impression was that they don’t even know what he intends yet.
As to Nale’s Radiant blade, I don’t think that this is evidence of the Skybreakers only getting them when they reach their 5th Ideal, just that he is a Radiant as well as a Herald.
Speaking of which – how is it that Szeth was able to fly away with Nale? Are squires easily transferrable between the masters or has he already begun to bond his own spren, despite his PoVs sneakily not mentioning it?
Interesting that Nale had been able to handle Nightblood safely before he gave it to Szeth and was previously only seen by the sword as “boring”. This last consultation with Ishar might have moved him across the line?
@@.-@ Isilel
Interesting question. Could squires still have power so long as they are close to any radiant of their order? We only saw Kaladin’s and Shallan’s squires, so we assume it has to be the radiant associated with them. We have not seen multiple members of the same order around each other for an extended period of time to know. I mean I think it would make sense. Just like a squire in real life during medieval times is attached to his knight, does not remove his squiredom when he follows the orders of another knight. But it still is definitely a question. Good catch.
@2 – Good idea, but it’s been clearly stated that the Everstorm is something new.
@5 well, once Taft said the oaths, I think the other squires were able to use their powers, sure Taft is a old solider and know how to fight, but with all of the confusion, I don’t think even he could have won the fight at Urinthuru all by himself, presumably he would have had support from the others.
@3 Scáth
I think the slave thing is interesting in that Brandon already did do some of that in Mistborn Era 1, with the nobles and the skaa. That was, of course, only two tiers. I agree that there has to restitution from humans, but also recognition from the parsh regarding Odium. The problem is that there isn’t much that you can do to a Shard. I don’t think there is much hatred from the humans to the parsh as there is in reverse, at least currently. We’ll see what happens during the time skip.
@4 Isilel
We don’t know what kind of torture, correct? I doubt it was a purely physical, so maybe mind games of some sort? I assume it is too “on-the-nose” that Taln was the most resilient and the only one that wasn’t nobility or “special.” According to a WOB, he was only a bodyguard/soldier.
Aubree. I do not think Ba-Ado-Mishram is free. I think if she was, she somehow Odium would have been aware and would have mentioned something about her. Alternatively, if she was free I suspect she would have tried to make contact with Odium or the Singers on her own. She does not seem to be one of the Unmade who are mindless (like the Thrill).
IMO Nightblood’s response of “Doesn’t bode well for your world” upon learning that Nale is “one of the Heralds – one of the least evil things in the world” is one of the funniest lines in SA.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
It’s worth remembering that it’s not like Nightblood is hooked up to any kind of objective measure of Evilness or anything. That Nale can hold him safely only means that he didn’t have any desire to use the sword for selfish reasons- and although Nale is many things, selfish is not one of them.
Nightblood’s comments in this chapter are most likely based on either him picking up on Szeth’s discomfort, or simple observation of the fact that people who makes speeches about how the idea of mercy is flawed and insinuate that sometimes killing cities isn’t so bad usually aren’t what most would consider to be good people.
On a side note: Are we 100% certain that the Honorblade Nale took from Shinovar is his own? Or have we just been assuming that because he has Skybreaker powers? I mean, Szeth definitely knows which Blade it is, and I suppose he probably would’ve brought it up if it wasn’t Nale’s, but he never actually says that it’s Nin’s Blade, y’know?
Is this the first mention we’ve had of a highprincess? Seems like it would be a foreign concept to the Vorins, as I don’t think even the wives of the highprinces are referred to as such.
Actually it is curious that Nale is setting of Nightblood’s “evil” sense. Nightblood usually clarifies anything evil as people who kills themselves when picking it up. The fact that Nale has picked it up shows that Nale doesn’t wish to use Nightblood for selfish ends. The fact that Nightblood here calls Nale evil probably means that even Nightblood thinks Nale’s ends to a means motives are evil.
Alice: After all, the people who started it have been dead for millennia.
Depends on what you mean by “started it.” Odium and Cultivation, for two, are not dead.
Alice: Which… wow? He sort of implies that Skybreakers don’t get a spren-blade until the fifth Ideal,
I agree with @Isilel, this is just proof that he’s a Radiant, not meant to be a direct reference to the Fifth Ideal. OTOH, has any other Skybreaker manifested a Shardblade so far?
The discussion of how old Nin is … consider that Hoid calls a 10,000-year-old man an infant by comparison to himself.
AA: I find it quite snicker-worthy that Nin was surprised about the food having decayed. What I really wonder, though, is just how long these stashes have been there. Since the Recreance? Have they been maintained over the last thousand years?
Szeth estimates centuries. Of course he grew up in Shinovar, where there is no crem, so he might not be an expert.
…at his hand, where a glistening Shardblade appeared. One of the two missing Honorblades. Szeth’s people had care of eight. Once, long ago, it had been nine. Then this one had vanished.
The tenth being Taln’s, which he kept through millennia of torture, until Hoid(?!) finally steals it.
AP: Yeah, if he’s setting off Nightblood’s evil-sense, then we’ve got a problem.
Scáth: Interesting question. Could squires still have power so long as they are close to any radiant of their order? We only saw Kaladin’s and Shallan’s squires, so we assume it has to be the radiant associated with them. We have not seen multiple members of the same order around each other for an extended period of time to know.
Steven Hedge: @5 well, once Taft said the oaths, I think the other squires were able to use their powers, sure Taft is a old solider and know how to fight, but with all of the confusion, I don’t think even he could have won the fight at Urinthuru all by himself, presumably he would have had support from the others.
Actually one of the squires says that Rock didn’t regain his Squire abilities until he was teleported, er, passed through the Oathgate to Thaylen City and was near Kaladin again.
Gilphon: It’s worth remembering that it’s not like Nightblood is hooked up to any kind of objective measure of Evilness or anything. That Nale can hold him safely only means that he didn’t have any desire to use the sword for selfish reasons- and although Nale is many things, selfish is not one of them.
Nale never held Nightblood unsheathed. The (probably aluminum) sheath prevents Nightblood from taking over the evil and suchlike. That’s why Vasher used to partially draw him before throwing him at random passers-by.
AA, A, and AP. Who is A? Seriously, one of the dialog bits above is from some third person with an initial “A” … or the proofreader missed one.
@13 I have to reread Warbreaker again, but I’m trying to remember if Vasher drew it for Vivenna when he tested her. I just thought that anyone who held even the sheath either felt the nausea (non evil) or the urge to either sell or draw it (evil). I didn’t think he had always partially draw him. Was Nightblood in the sheath when the fisherman pulled him out of the ocean? (sorry if this is not relevant to the conversation, mods)
@10 I don’t know if we are 100% but it stands to reason he would be comfortable taking back his property, but taking someone else’s blade would be stealing?
@6 Austin
In RogerPavelle’s defense, the stormfather actually said “it is new, but of old design”. So although the Everstorm is new, it is based on something old. So it could still be Ba-Ado-Mishram, doing the same old thing, but a new way.
@7 Steven Hedge
True, though did we get any word that they could not use their powers prior to arriving? Genuinely asking because I cannot recall
@8 Keyblazing
Oh Odium is totally the main issue. I was just saying that the issues that stemmed from that over the centuries have become so overlapped with each other, it is hard to unwind them. If we say the humans are here now, so the parshendi are the aggressors, then that ignores the slavery they suffered. If we say the parsh can rise up in retaliation against the humans and take back their lands, it ignores that the humans had homes of their own that are now torn away from them. And we can keep going back and back and back. There isn’t meant to be an easy answer to make everyone happy because then the issues with the Israelies and Palestininians would be resolved already. But it isn’t. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong, both present and going all the way back. It is a deep deep mire on both sides.
@9 AndrewHB
Personally I think Odium just felt he didn’t need her yet. Same thing with the Nightmother. We don’t see her except in the beginning of oathbringer. I would imagine she fled back to Odium, yet he didn’t use her. I don’t think he thought he needed to. I think he felt he had the whole thing well in hand.
@12 Steven Hedge
Once you pass nightblood’s “test” the first time, you become immune. So theoretically Nale could have not been “evil” in Nightblood’s mind, passed the test, and now that he is “evil” in Nightblood’s mind, Nale is still unaffected.
@13 Carl
Was that back earlier in the book, or at the final battle? Just want to figure out a time line. Thanks for mentioning it!
Regarding Nale, that could be too.
I thought the disc animals were tortoises.
Nale’s stores were probably originally meant as preparation for the next Desolation. He might have canned food or something like that, but even that won’t remain fresh forever.
@1: Wow. That… that makes a lot of sense.
@13: I think there’s WoB that it wasn’t Hoid who took it.
I wonder if Nale is being set up for a kind of ‘Javert’ moment. Even some of his lines are quite similar to some of the things he says (in the musical, at least). ‘I am the law, and the law is not mocked’ and the whole stars/darkness metaphor. Granted, it’s kind of a trope, so…
There are no right answers, maybe, but there do seem to be a lot of wrong ones. What if then we found out that the humans enslaved the parshmen because the parshmen (or Odium) had been THEIR aggressors? And so forth. Eventually you just have to break the cycle in some way. (Also, add to that the complication that in the current day, the parshmen literally couldn’t take care of themselves.)
I will say that logic/rationality does NOT have to mean a black and white/binary state. It may actually mean taking into account even MORE variables and factors and weights (one of them being the emotional impact) of a specific situation and figuring out the correct answer from that :)
@19 Lisamarie
Yep, a whole lot of wrong ones. Go to a parsh and say
“hey we had to enslave you, you couldn’t take care of yourself”
The parsh can reply:
“Yeah, and whose fault is that? You made me this way and then took advantage”
Then the human can say back:
“Yeah well, your people were attacking and killing us. That is why we had to change you”
Then the parsh can say:
“Well we wouldn’t have been attacking and killing you if you hadn’t taken our land from us, despite the land we already freely gave you”
Then the human says:
“Well I didn’t do that ages ago, so why should I pay for something my ancestors did?”
To which the parsh says:
“Well you enslaved me now, so why can’t I be upset about that?”
To which the human says:
“Well you were unable to take care of yourself so….”
And round and round we go. The only way to resolve things is for both sides to gain, and both sides to lose, but for something so emotional and painful, it is going to be a really really hard process, especially with the shard of hatred in the background.
Questions of justice, especially with regard to land and occupation, fascinate me. I have developed a theory of principled restitution based on a study of historical rulership and conquest, and it might be applicable here if we the readers (and the people in-setting) can ever learn the truth of events.
The theory boils down to: proper sovereignty over a piece of land belongs to the last known owner to acquire that land by a means other than unprovoked use of force, with the first such instance immediately de-legitimizing any subsequent claims by people other than the heirs of the victim.
What this means is that an individual, a family, or a people that can claim legitimate ownership going back to before the oldest known unprovoked conquest or seizure have a right to that land that trumps any more recent claim, no matter how innocent. If a people were conquered because they attacked a foreign power and then lost the resultant war, then they forfeited their claim by their aggression, but if a people lost possession due to unprovoked invasion, legal manipulation, murder, theft, forcible relocation, or any other involuntary means then they should have that land restored to them, and any loss to the current occupant (assuming the current occupant is not directly responsible for the illegitimate dispossession) should be made good by compensation from the guilty party or institution.
Assuming that humans arrived on Roshar and were given the Shin lands, then humans would only have legitimate claim to those lands and any others that they purchased or that were unoccupied by anyone prior to their settlement of it (I do not count nomadic territories as unoccupied). Any lands that were truly unoccupied that the humans settled should by rights belong to those settlers, but any settlers that squatted on occupied lands did so illegitimately by this theory.
However, if the Singers gave humanity lands that belonged to them, or if humans settled lands that were not claimed by any Singers, and then the Singers decided to go to war with the humans, then those Singers by this theory would abandon their right to ownership of land by that act of aggression. Likewise, if the humans on Roshar attacked the Singers unprovoked, then they would have sacrificed their claim to whatever lands they had occupied up to that point.
Based on the little that we know, I have a guess as to the order of events:
1 – Humanity flees their now-destroyed world and arrive as refugees on Roshar. They come to an accommodation with the Singers involving the occupation and settlement of previously unoccupied lands bounded by the mountains.
2 – Over time, humans eventually find a way past the mountains and begin to settle outside, either occupying unsettled lands or purchasing them from Singers (the story of the girl and the wall does not suggest a violent expansion).
3 – Odium’s human voidbringers invade. Bad stuff happens.
4 – Over time, humans from the non-Shin areas of Roshar begin to take the lead over the Singers, possibly in alliance with them, perhaps by breeding faster than them. The Singers decline in population due to casualties from the voidbringer wars as the human population first matches and then exceeds their own.
5 – Recidivist Singers decide that humanity (even their non-voidbringer allies) are the real problem and align with Odium, ushering in the era of the Singer voidbringers, which eventually results in the Fused.
6 – Eventually the entire Singer race is enslaved by Odium even as the last of the human voidbringers finally die off (or are rendered sufficiently few as to fall out of mention in legend).
7 – The historical cycle of collapse and recovery of human civilization continues, but now humans fear all Singers and react to them as threats even outside of Desolations. This culminates in the False Desolation, where humans and Singers go to war on a genocidal scale without the direct influence of Odium.
8 – Radiants figure out how to cut off Singers from the Rhythms, effectively neutering Odium’s army and enslaving all the Singers except the Listeners.
If this is anything like an accurate timeline, then the loss of historical records will make a just disposition of territory and lands impossible to determine based on the theory with which I opened this post. Instead, they’ll need to come to some kind of agreement for a new starting point, likely involving humans withdrawing from significant portions of Roshar or, better, Singers being integrated into society and establishing themselves as equal partners in civilization, with consequent modifications to existing political structures to accommodate both human and Singer needs and ideals.
As for the question of slavery, Slave Form Singers are, if I understand correctly, effectively helpless. They had been reduced to seemingly animal status, and as such slavery isn’t necessarily the right word for it. Domestication, perhaps? Slave Form has a real diminution in capacity compared even to Dull Form, and as such I’m not sure what the humans were supposed to do once the Radiants pulled the trigger on crippling the Singers. They seem to have been wholly ignorant of the Listeners, who would hardly have been capable of supporting all the newly Slave Form Singers out there. Enslaving them probably saved their species from a massive die-off. The real key will be to see how humans interact with them now that they are no longer trapped in Slave Form.
As for the question of justice and mercy, I find that anyone who truly wants to see absolute justice does not understand what he is asking for. Under the very strictest interpretation of justice, everyone is guilty of something and therefore everyone could be subject to all manner of punishment. What prevents us from all just killing one another in an orgy of just deserts is the existence of mercy, by which we recognize the essential humanity of the guilty party and offer respite from what justice would demand, through commutation or pardon. This can come from love of one’s fellow man, or from empathy as we recognized our own deeds in the lives of others, or simply from self interest as we try to get other people to show us mercy by first offering it to them. In any case, justice without mercy is a terrible thing that would result in everyone suffering terribly. Nale embodies the worst kind of hypocrisy, that which refuses to recognized its own miss-steps even as it claims to be an impartial executor of cosmic justice. By refusing to see his own crimes, and by deliberately divorcing his judgment from any sense of humanity, he removes all the incentives toward mercy that would ordinarily temper justice, and thus he claims the right to execute anyone who he judges to be guilty of a capital crime (which is pretty much everyone). His obstinacy in this is illustrated starkly when Szeth brings up his error about killing nascent Radiants, and his justification that he embodies the law proves his hypocrisy. If he were truly just, he would account his error as a crime against all the people who he harmed as a result of it, and would seek out punishment. Instead, he simply changes the justification to a new one (eventually culminating in defecting to Odium ostensibly on behalf of the Singers).
@21 Porphyrogenitus
Got a question out of curiosity regarding your premise since you said it was originally in regards to something else. So this does not have to do with stormlight, but since you brought it up, my brain perked, so I feel compelled to ask.
(I know now that I reread it, it sounds like it is linked to stormlight, but that really is not my intention. please read it as purely a hypothetical not applicable in any way to stormlight. I want to further understand the rulebrick as stated)
In your rule brick, if for instance there was a plot of land. Person A lawfully owns the land and always has. Person C drives person A away. Person B comes along, and Person C transfers ownership of the land to Person B. Person B had no idea the land was stolen. They purchase the land in good faith from their perspective, and live on the land for years. Person A finally is able to come back to his or her land. He or she finds Person B has his or her land. What happens? The land was taken away via conquest/violence from Person A, so they should get back their land. But Person B did not know that, purchased the land in good faith, and thought they had valid ownership to build a life. Should Person B be forced to vacate when it is Person C’s fault? What is Person A’s recourse, and what is Person B’s recourse?
Upon thinking, I should probably private message this as it is not connected to stormlight. I have deleted it and sent it your way.
Edit 3: LOL just saw your name is in red. I cannot message you, so I will white out my question for you to read lol
Is the word “brightprincess” used elsewhere in Stormlight Archive? The only occurences I found on the Coppermind Wiki are in references to Bo-Ado-Mishram.
I still can’t stop being amused by the icon of Szeth facepalming.
@John, “Was that back earlier in the book, or at the final battle? Just want to figure out a time line.”
Um, what? Hoid talking about his age was during his conversation with Shallan.
Oathbringer, Chapter 68.
Was going to finally make a comment about ‘heh hehe, Szeth’s icon looks like a facepalm’ this week.
Forgot to make that comment.
Was ninja’d by AeronaGreenjoy.
(But yeah, ha ha, he looks like he’s facepalming over Nin’s logic).
@@@@@23 & 25
Nale: I am the Law!
Szeth: facepalms
@@@@@ 21
Fantastic post! Really enjoyed hearing from someone who has put serious thought into this moral quandary that is faced in many real-world places today.
@21 – wow, that was really well thought out. I can’t imagine any humans actually abiding by it but it does seem as fair as something like this could be.
As for B-A-M: so if she was a High Princess does that imply she started out as either human or Parsh before being unmade? It seems we had mostly been thinking in terms of the unmade coming from spren.
@22:
//That is a good question. My intent would be for A to recover the land, while C is forced to compensate B for the fraud C perpetrated upon B by selling his ill-gotten possessions. If C cannot be found or has no resources with which to make compensation, then that might be a situation where B could expect partial recompense from a governing authority or may simply have to bear the loss. A suffered the greater injustice, so if justice requires priority, then A is ahead of B.
As for the inspiration, it came about as part of an examination of the Arabian/Turkic occupation of much of the middle east. Pretty much all of those lands were taken from prior claimants by unprovoked force, and between forced resettlement, genocide, and religious/political/social/economic pressure most of the original populations have either been killed, exiled, or marginalized. The same holds true in many ways for land in the United States of America, though that gets a lot messier because so much of the land was unclaimed (not even really used by Amerinds as part of a nomadic lifestyle), hostilities on both sides were rampant, and there is a severe paucity of records. The most egregious victims would be the Cherokee (IMO), as they had the clearest claim to their territory, were actual allies of the United States, and got completely screwed over by the Jackson administration.//
@26: I’m glad that you enjoyed the theory. I have severe doubts as to how practical it would be in application, but it’s a useful thought exercise nonetheless.
@28 Porphyrogenitus
Good points. Yeah being unable to get your hands on Person C does make things difficult. Unfortunately what also adds to the issue is if either person grew to have an attachment to the land. Then it does not matter what monetary compensation is provided, the person will still feel cheated out of their “home”. Actually just had another thought, what if the scenario presents as Person A have priority, but the relocation of Person B would cause further hardship for Person B? For instance that place was close to Person B’s family and job. That by being relocating, Person B may lose their job, especially if relocated to a place where the job market for their profession is greatly reduced. Compensation in that case for Person B becomes very difficult to balance the problems caused by providing recompense to Person A. To be clear, not typing this to say your thought experiment is wrong, or flawed. Basically just taking part in your thought experiment. Hopefully that was clear from the beginning.
@29 Scáth,
//It’s a difficult question. Personally I’d leave it up to mediation, which is likely going to be the same solution for those situations involving a lack of records, and is also likely to be the best option for a human-Singer settlement. The biggest problems with mediation, though, are going to be buy-in from all parties as well as trust in the neutrality of the mediator. Solve those and a lot of things become much easier.
The original basis for the theory is on a wider scope, dealing with people groups, since that’s by far the widest cause of unjust displacement and dispossession. Nations, empires, kings, mobs, gangs – collective use of unprovoked force is more likely to be responsible for any given dispossession than a personal injury. That said, anything that aspires to approach a solution for a problem as fundamental to the human condition as the loss of ancestral property needs to be challenged in as many ways as possible to see how it holds up under the pressure of real life. It’s the difference between theory and action.//
Speaking of Singer/human negotiations, that might well be helped along significantly if there were a Bondsmith available from each group, presumably Dalinar and some as-yet-unkown Singer (maybe the third Bondsmith being a Horneater would be appropriate).
@10
Yes its his honorblade
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/32-arcanum-unbounded-fort-collins-signing/#e2562
@12
Nightblood isnt actually sure here, he thinks Nale might be evil.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/385-orem-signing/#e12567
@30 Porphyrigenitus
Interesting answers. Thanks for discussing that with me!
As to a horneater as a bondsmith to help bridge the gap, I could see that, though I feel like the horneaters as a people are so far removed from the parsh at this point that I do not feel it would work. I think Rlain would accomplish that better.
So side note, it looks like we may be reading more of Navani! I can’t wait to possibly read of Urithiru research, further fabrial research, and possibly maybe even a third bondsmith or dustbringer! This is very very VERY loose, but I personally do not think Sanderson would be saying he was enjoying writing Navani the most of late if she was only to play a brief part. Magitech, can’t wait!
Questioner
In the characters of Stormlight, who’s the most enjoyable to write about?
Brandon Sanderson
I like them all for different reasons. I really have been enjoying writing Navani lately, so she’s been the most enjoyable. But it changes.
Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)
in my opinion its strongly foreshadowed, that Rlain will be a windrunner too. He wants nothing more than belonging to bridge 4, it would be pretty cruel to make him a bondsmith. Though id find a singer bondsmith to be very interesting.
@havi, people don’t always get what they want, even in fiction. Shallan for one never wanted to be a Radiant at all. She just wants her family (including adopted family) to be safe. Oathbringer shows her expanding her definition of “family” to include … everyone who is suffering, like the poor of Kharbranth. Note that she (almost) completely fails to help them–doesn’t get what she wants.
Thats not the same thing, also shallan attracted pattern with her lies.
All members of bridge 4 actively try to attract honorspren and most of them are on the best way. Rlain just never tried it, with venli as the first singer radiant he is on his best way. I dont see much bondsmith quality in Rlain at all, hes a soldier. Since there are only max 3 bondsmiths i would predict them to be special and Rlain really isnt that outstanding for me.
@35 havi
I think Carl’s point is Shallan did not consciously intend to bond Pattern. Nor did Kaladin consciously intend to bond Syl. They ended up with the spren that they did for a myriad of reasons. Kaladin urged Rlain to help him understand what it feels like to be a parsh surrounded by humans. Rlain could take that up as a personal cause, which would be to unite the humans and parsh instead of divide. So the character would develop into someone who could be a bondsmith. Personally I do not feel when we see nascent radiants, that they will exemplify everything about the order they will become a member to. Otherwise why progress through the oaths? Lift I believe is a prime example of this. I think she will grow into the mantle of the edgedancers. But I totally get and understand if Rlain does not fit a bondsmith to you, or you feel Rlain is not an interesting character. We all have characters we enjoy and dislike in equal measure.
@36 – I always got the impression that the spren bonded them without their knowing or consent.
You are right of course, but you have to admit that all of these are special cases, since they 1. were the first in several thousand years to properly bond a spren and 2. didnt know what they were doing. All who do the squire training now consciously try to attract honorspren and become windrunners and i think that matters a lot
Yeah, he can develop in this direction, but you could say that about pretty much every charakter “in the future, he could go down this path”
quite contrary, actually, i really like Rlain, he is interesting, because he is unique in his position at the moment, but hes not.. special to me, if you know what i mean. Only two additional people in the whole cosmere can become bondsmiths at the moment, for me i expect them to be outstanding.
@37 Austin
Brandon has said you attract a spren by giving it something it wants. With the lesser spren it is easier. Make a fire, you attract fire spren, think really hard and you attract logic spren, and so on. Higher spren are harder because in my opinion, more is going to be factored into it, which I will cover in my response to Havi, but yes I agree, the bondie to me does not know or necessarily consent. The later windrunners certainly increase their chances by knowing what attracts a windrunner spren (i.e protecting and leading), but that still does not guarantee they will get a windrunner spren to bond. They could get a different spren, or no spren at all. So a long way of saying, yes I agree with you, and felt that was what I was saying lol.
@38 Havi
Thing is, to me, they are special and at the same time they aren’t. Once you reach high spren, they are sapient in the cognitive realm. They are individuals with their own likes and dislikes. They have their own story and experiences. Timbre for instance is theorized to be the daughter of Ico and to have worked at the money exchange. Her grandfather “killed” by a human. That is a life. A history. Normally she would bond a resolute and builder human. But because of her life and history, if all she was around was resolute and builder humans, and she was the only spren around, then none of them would become radiants. Doesn’t matter how resolute and buildy they are. So a windrunner squire can focus on protecting and leading but the spren available disagree about how he or she is doing so. Maybe a dustbringer spren is hanging out and feels all that protecting and leading is done via the person being obedient and brave. So the squire can want to be a windrunner, do everything he or she can to become a windrunner and end up a dustbringer. So yeah, we really can say that about any character because there are multiple variables that we have no way of knowing just based on the individual
@39 scath
well of course the sprens decision is vital and anything can happen. I never said Rlain couldnt become a bondsmith, i said i dont expect brandon to make him one.
@40 Havi
No problem. Like I said before, totally respect that. To each their own.
Havi @38:
We can’t expect that the other 2 Bondsmiths are going to get as much detail as Dalinar. The main characters are the main characters. And personally, if an unprecedented alliance between humans and singers is going to be one of the key elements in their eventual victory over Odium, as I expect is going to be the case, then one of the Bondsmiths will have to come from them. What is more, since the Bondsmiths in particular need plenty of life experience to fulfill their role, only one of the surviving Listeners would qualify, IMHO. Rlain is one of the 2 who got some attention from the narrative and are still alive. He is also already in position to be a “bridge” between humans and singers because of his unique relationship with Bridge 4.
Now, it can be that some Listener who gets introduced in book 4 through the flashbacks will become a Bondsmith instead. But would they necessarily feel as more “special”?
@35:
But Rlain wasn’t a soldier, he was a spy! And while he later adopted the warform, it was because he expected to fight in the final, desperate battle against the Alethi. Once he saw that his people were “lost”, Bridge 4, who were soldiers, were the only people left to him, so he remained in it.
Rock may have singer ancestry, but as Dalinar’s visions show, the Horneaters were very much considered human, back during the Desolations and could become Radiants.
Yes he was a spy, why would you think that would make him less of a soldier? In his viewpoint we learn that he was a soldier in Eshonais company, together with Thude and the others.
There are still the ones that fled during Eshonais coup, wich we dont know what happened to them. So yeah, if it has to be a listener, im rooting for Eshonais mother as a bondsmith :)
@13
“…at his hand, where a glistening Shardblade appeared. One of the two missing Honorblades. Szeth’s people had care of eight. Once, long ago, it had been nine. Then this one had vanished.
The tenth being Taln’s, which he kept through millennia of torture, until Hoid(?!) finally steals it.”
Do we know for sure that Hoid stole it? I don’t always remember all the details. What I do know is that Taln arrived at the Shattered Plains with an ordinary shard blade. I think this was subterfuge on Hoid’s part to deflect who Taln actually was. If anyone had the ability to steal a bonded Honor blade from a Herald without actually killing them first it might be Hoid. I wonder if it is merely dismissed? I hope that Taln will eventually summon his Honor blade when it is needed.